After that, building codes around the country no longer allowed the use of polybutylene pipes in new construction. We've requested they replace the pipes, give us a credit for the replacement, or bring the offer price down to cover it. 0 found this answer helpful | 0 lawyers agree Helpful Unhelpful During my over 20-year real estate investing career, Ive dealt many times with properties having this problem. We are not affiliated with, and do not receive any compensation from, any of the companies or products mentioned in this blog. having polybutylene pipes and fittings that haven't leaked yet. Our expertise shows in every repipe we do and is with you every step of the way. These minerals are a primary reason that contributes to the deterioration of the polybutylene pipes. If you decide to replace Polybutylene pipes in your home, that is good. We would have requested they replace them and if they didn't we would have walked away early in the process. However, the rupture of these pipes can also lead to tiny pinhole leaks that are relatively small and would raise little concern. You and your family dont have to leave home and cool your heels somewhere while people are walking through your home. Well Crap, Polybutylene Pipes in a House I'm Looking at Buying #10628138 10/28/15. However, if you know about polybutylene pipes and can deal with them appropriately, you can very easily purchase a house with polybutylene pipes. foreclosure They will keep the property and rent it to tenants. The problem was that these pipes shortly began to fail in astounding numbers. What can you do if you buy a home and later discover something was omitted from seller disclosure? We never would have ordered any of these inspections, appraisals, etc. Historically, there has been quite a lot of litigation around polybutylene plumbing. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. However, if you know you have poly plumbing - you will most likely need to disclose that fact. Polybutylene is practically guaranteed to break down at some point, and it's impossible to tell how soon that will be just by observing a pipe's exterior. Therefore, having knowledge about polybutylene pipes and ensuring that you appropriately deal with them is very important. Code requirements cited may have been changed in a newer code edition, or may not yet be adopted in your area. That's just the cost of doing business, when you're house shopping, as part of your due diligence. foreclosure We've even seen sales fall through, when homeowners didn't know they had poly plumbing, but it was found during inspection. Messages sent using the form on this site, go directly to our email, which we check regularly. In this case, some buyers might demand you to replace the existing polybutylene pipes, and some might ask for a reduction in price so they can re-pipe the home after theyve bought it. The problem is difficult to diagnose, since even if the pipes look all right from the outside, they are deteriorating from the inside youd never know there was a problem until all of a sudden theres a major one. A frequent by-product of the water damage was mold. What's that powdery crust on the pipe connections at the water heater? In our experience - once you have one leak, you are likely facing a systemic issue, and other leaks will follow. Hence, to answer the question, yes, a seller is obliged to disclose the presence of polybutylene pipes. We perform many polybutylene repipe quotes for sellers planning a sale - or even for buyers, who want to factor repipe costs into their offers: even when there has been no history of PB pipe failures. Joined: Jun 2012. I think you are correct to worry about it, and if she has those pipes in her house she's in denial that it won't impact her ability to sell at some point or cause her expensive repairs. Evidence of that can prove that your seller is liable includes: Timeline testimony from your contractor Finding out that your dream house has polybutylene pipes can be discouraging, and it might sway your decision on whether to buy the home and rightfully so, these types of pipes can be risky. Of course, individual homeowners didnt know that. Why is old galvanized steel water pipe a problem for homebuyers? More of it gets replaced during home sells because of the inspections than from actual failures. If the Seller refuses to return your money, you would have to file a lawsuit against the Seller. We are the nation's finest polybutylene remediation company. Polybutylene piping is usually gray, and you'll only find it in your fresh water potable plumbing system. It does not make you 100% uninsurable. Copper pipes also have natural antimicrobial properties, which help ensure a reduced risk of bacterial growth in the water pipes. I went back over our original contract and in the Disclosure Statement the seller checked "plastic" instead of "polybutylene." If a seller does disclose square footage, it has to be accurate but there's no obligation for a seller to make the information public. There is quite a common misconception that replacing polybutylene pipes costs a lot of money and is likely to break the bank. If you are the listing broker and you or your seller knows the property has polybutylene or Kitec plumbing systems, it's pretty obvious - you must disclose the fact to the buyer just as you are required to . Can galvanized steel pipe still be used for new water lines in a house? When it comes to removing polybutylene and installing a new plumbing system, our team of professionals exceeds all customer expectations. You will need to excavate them for examination. I don't know how anyone can buy a house unaware of PB piping. What is a "combination waste and vent" in a plumbing system? In new construction, it was replaced by copper or more dependable forms of plastic pipe, such as CPVC and PEX. PB-1 is a high molecular weight, linear, isotactic, and semi-crystalline polymer. There were lawsuits including a class action lawsuit involving the pipes and disclosure issues. The damage occurs along the internal pipe walls. Which Way to Go when Selling a Home with Polybutylene Pipes? You only deal with the buyer. Look for reviews online on sites like Facebook, Google, and Yelp. The pipes would have to be removed and examined. If they don't agree, though, we are going to have to walk away. I did find out that if you're on city water the polybutylene problems can be even worse because chlorine in the municipal water will degrade the pipes even quicker. a professional plumber will charge between $150 and $500. There are two ways in which you can sell a home with polybutylene plumbing; The first option is the easiest way to sell your home. It also said check all that apply. Make sure that any reviews that you rely on are authentic. Can you connect CPVC pipe directly to a gas water heater? Has your homeowners' insurance company declined to renew your policy, because of those gray pipes you've been living with just fine for years? PB-1 combines typical characteristics of conventional polyolefins with certain properties of technical polymers. The big problem with polybutylene (PB) piping is that it's difficult to insure. It was particularly widely used in the sunbelt states. If the seller or the home inspector fail to mention that your home has polybutylene plastic water supply lines and crimped fittings you may be able to collect money as part of a class action lawsuit. Most states have stricter . However, copper pipes are exceptionally durable and, thus, will last a long time if you use these to replace fragile polybutylene pipes. How can I tell what type of plumbing pipe I have? Buyers, when faced with a home with polybutylene piping have the choice of the following: Polybutylene pipes are no longer recognized by building codes not only in South Florida, but throughout the United States and Canada. Now that you know who your as-is buyers are, where do you find them? I would not of gone under contract w them had I know and now I've lost 5k because I'm backing out during . An investor can close more quickly. This means that a buyer would need to have the financial ability to buy the home and then make repairs. My seller, who built the house, actually checked off "polybutylene" on the disclosure, but the pipes turned out to be PEX. If the Seller wants to ignore the poly issue, ask them to sign a Release Agreement, indemnifying you of all potential liability. Call our residential repipe division to schedule a free estimate for your home: Or visit our regular residential repipe site to learn more: Repipe Specialists - USA245 E Olive Ave #500Burbank, CA91502. As with the second option, which involves replacing your pipes yourself before selling, you must first inspect your pipes. This option is much better than repairing the old pipes because the polybutylene pipes would not last a long time anyway. Florida case law provides that, with some exceptions, a home seller must disclose any facts or conditions about the property that have a substantial impact on its value or desirability and that others cannot easily see for themselves. Please include a message before submitting. What are the abandoned pipes sticking out of the wall in my house? Check our price for ateam inspection by two FL-licensed contractors and inspectors. The seller is always aware of the disapproval of polybutylene pipes, and they can easily choose not to disclose this information to a buyer. Why is old galvanized steel water pipe a problem for homebuyers? However, in mid-1966, manufacturers ceased production due to allegations claiming that polybutylene pipe failures caused property damage. Many homeowners prefer this method because it can save them money. Whether it's snakes, mice, or bats, in most . Unfortunately, if you still have poly plumbing, and did not participate in prior polybutylene class-actions, your legal options are likely very limited. Would we have a case since they lied on the disclosure? PB-1, when applied as a pure or reinforced resin, can replace materials like metal, rubber and engineering polymers. It is now mainly an academic exercise determining why a specific system failed and/or if an existing poly-b system may fail in the future. Fill out our Request a Cash Offer form to get a few offers from competing real estate investors working in your area and vetted by our reputation standards. What's that powdery crust on the pipe connections at the water heater? This can be a good idea if you have made up your mind about purchasing the house because it is better to get the re-piping done before moving into the home. Are Polybutylene Water Supply Pipes Bad? The second option will take more time and money but it may result in a higher price for your home. Many of them specifically require you to disclose whether or not you are aware of polybutylene piping on your property. Which water pipes are an insurance problem and possibly uninsurable? Houses are expensive things to own and unexpected bills can come up at any time. Woe is me. History tells us that problems will occur, you just dont know when. Call today at 954-734-7429 or 1-888-8-Insurance. >>. As we mentioned earlier, banning polybutylene pipes causes them to become barriers to selling or buying a home. If you are looking to purchase a home, look out for the signs of polybutylene piping as inspectors and realtors may not be required to disclose. However, the seller must be truthful if asked, unless state law allows them to say that they don't wish to answer. Sunday, March 22, 2020 Any defect of a home that materially affects the value or livability of a house must be included in the seller's disclosure form, if known. After all, they are so tiny. Initially, contractors installed around 10 million polybutylene pipes in homes in the US. However, you cant repair polybutylene pipes because these pipes production ceased quite a long time ago. The realtor actually removed all the copper piping to scrap for meth money, and replaced it all with polybutylene piping. I'm a licensed Home Inspector, Certified Professional Inspector (CPI), Certified Master Inspector (CMI), and FHA 203k Consultant. What does polybutylene pipe look like? Buying a home in North/Central Florida? Historically, there has been debate about why poly-pipes have failed. There are words that strike dread into the heart of a real estate agent and one of them is polybutylene. Also, if your home is listed in MLS, the local Multiple Listing Service may require square footage disclosure and . Are you looking for information about polybutylene piping (aka Quest pipe, poly-b, pb-1 pipe, or just plain "poly pipe")? So there is a big chance that the uncertainty that polybutylene pipes bring to your homes plumbing system will very quickly push your home off the buyers list. You could easily run afoul of these laws if you arent forthcoming about polybutylene pipes in your home. The price of PEX pipes ranges between $0.40 to $2.0 per linear foot, depending on the diameter of the pipe. https://www.polybutylene.com/realtor.html. for ateam inspection by two FL-licensed contractors and inspectors. The most significant historical litigation was the Cox v. Shell Oil class-action lawsuit, culminating in close to a billion dollar settlement in 1995, being paid out to thousands of homeowners over subsequent years. Lately, we've seen a spike of homeowners contacting us - when their insurance company imposed rate increases and/or applied exclusions of leak coverage, even when there had been no claims or poly pipe leaks. You can sell your house fast and for cash to an investor. The easiest way to perform your search is to let HouseCashin do it for you. Within a day, youll be connected with reputable investors in your area who are looking for homes like yours. No, it is no longer produced. The polybutylene pipes should have come to light during the home inspection or as part of seller . Your contractor should talk to you about whether its possible to leave the existing pipes in place and re-route the water through the new pipes. They can also be flexible in setting a closing date that fits your needs. . Your average homeowner would not know polybutylene pipes from any other type of plastic plumbing. Depending on your market and the condition of your property, they may not offer you full market value for your home. Can I Sell My House with a Property, State or IRS Tax Lien? You can, however, replace the polybutylene pipes with PEX piping. Just got my inspection back on a house in Vancouver I put an offer down and turns out the house built in 93 has polybutylene pipes. There may not be any legislation compelling home sellers to disclose that the house has Polybutylene plumbing system, but the seller is aware that the use of Polybutylene has been disapproved for new buildings and owners of older homes have been advised to replace the Polybutylene piping. Honestly, I don't think that the sellers were being dishonest or intentionally with holding the fact that the pipes are polybutylene. One of the significant aspects of buying a house with polybutylene pipe is the insurance problem. This does not include any repairs for water damage or mold. Interior repiping can take from 1 to 5 days. Insurance companies dont look at these on a case-by-case basis. Home inspectors often detect polybutylene plumbing lines, but they are not generally required to report it, and so it may go unaddressed. Polybutylene pipes are often used with copper fittings which can also confuse a homebuyer. Do you have to disclose polybutylene pipes to a homebuyer? Push-on shut-off valves are a good option for this repair, also. What is Polybutylene Pipe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutylene. Most of these forms require the seller to disclose information related to polybutylene pipes. Polybutylene is the name of the polymer that the actual pipes are made from. The damage starts on the inside of the pipes. We're also wondering if they made a past claim to the small claims settlement--that would prove they knew. Or perhaps your polybutylene plumbing sprung a leak, and you are trying to decide if you should repair or replace it? Would we have a case since they lied on the disclosure? A little about the house its a 3200 Sq ft house with 3 bathrooms which I offered 600k for and they listed for 550k. What you are complaining about is the process working. The seller may not want to take the home off the market to have the work done, which includes ripping out a lot of drywall, and there are a lot of properties with this kind of problem. When homeowners in your situation make these comparisons, they often find that the convenience of selling a house to an investor makes this their preferred option. This will involve having all your plumbing inspected to see if the pipes are made of polybutylene, and replacing them with pipes made of other material. Even home inspectors cant tell you how far along the damage has progressed. How do you accurately find a broken water pipe leak under the floor slab? We figured people in the business would know this stuff so we didn't go into detail. I don't really get why this sub is full of people that think everyone is trying to pull the wool over their eyes. Also, construction methods and materials vary in different parts of the country and it is possible that important issues related to your area may not be covered here. People could easily break these laws if they choose not to disclose information about their usage of polybutylene pipes on their property. IANAL but, I doubt you have a case to get your inspection $$$ back. Polybutylene (PB) is a plastic used for piping in home plumbing systems that were manufactured between 1978 and mid-1995. Polybutylene pipe is a gray plastic tubing that was commonly used as a water-supply plumbing pipe between 1978 and 1995, at which time it was discontinued due to reports of pipes rupturing. However, this is entirely false. Copyright. My house is more than 125 years old, and I dread having to sell it to someone like this. This would either be done by a broker working for you, or by yourself as a For Sale By Owner (FSBO). Interview several and check their references. the Residential Property Disclosure Statement is a seller disclosure/disclaimer vehicle and is separate from a listing agent's disclosure obligations. So, if you're absolutely in love with a home with polybutylene piping, have your real estate agent ask the seller to either . Investors buy homes with cash. Well, you can. Then choose the best offer and quickly close on your home within a couple of weeks, skipping the inconveniences and upfront expenses of a traditional real estate sale. You just have to know who your prospective buyers are, where to find them, and what other factors of such a deal you should consider. Either copper pipe or PEX tubing are suitable repipe materials, but we find the vast majority of our customers replace their poly pipes with PEX tubing. Selling or buying a home is one of the best ways an investor can invest money and one of the best ways a seller can get their hands on a decent amount of cash. Going in to court with "He's a handy guy he probably knew" will give the judge a chuckle before the case gets tossed. Facts vs. Fiction 6. However, polybutylene pipes have since proven too fragile to withstand chemicals found in the public water supply. In some states, the seller must disclose polybutylene pipes as a material defect in the residential property disclosure form. That would confirm your plumbing is polybutylene. Why is Your Water Heater Leaking From Overflow Pipe? You will have to spend a lot of time, money, and energy trying to repair the pipes. Make sure you call Florida Statewide Insurance today so you can get all of the Polybutylene Pipes Insurance coverage options available. All I can really say is good luck! You should compare their offer to your propertys full market value minus your repair costs and closing costs. Along with durability, these pipes are also heat resistant which makes PEX pipes a great choice. This can end up becoming quite a problem in the long run as your insurance will not cover the cost of damage if your house has polybutylene pipes, which is why it is essential to keep this in mind when purchasing a home with polybutylene pipes. In short, you don't have to disclose a death in a house in Texas unrelated to the condition of the property, the HIV status of any occupants of the property, and won't be held responsible for any conditions that you are truly unaware of. Our home inspection report just came back and it says the 1990 house has polybutylene pipes. Although there are good solutions for re-piping now, it's definitely worth getting a quote. Does polybutylene need to be replaced . If we compare these two options, the first one is very clearly the better and more feasible option for you as a seller because, in this case, you would turn the entire problem over to the buyer and walk away. Eventually, this could make them liable for lawsuits from their buyer. You may have seen examples of this on television. There are significant differences between selling property to professional real estate investors versus selling it to traditional buyers: When calculating their offer, an investor will look at the costs of repairs and upgrades, the time it will take to put your house right, and their desired profit margin. They were often sold under the brand name Quest, and can be referred to with a variety of terms; including PB, PB-1, poly-pipes, or poly-b pipe. Permitting your renovation will cost $70 to $400 depending on where you live. Can you connect CPVC pipe directly to a gas water heater? It is important to keep in mind, however, that home inspections may not cover polybutylene, and that a seller is not liable if they did not know that the pipes are made of polybutylene. If a leak occurs in a wall - it may be a slow undetected drip over a period of weeks or months, resulting in extensive mold and water damage. The Solution: A. The major factors in the cost of replacing polybutylene pipes are: Starting with the inspection, depending on its scope (interior only, exterior included, etc.) What is the difference between water pipe and sewage (waste) pipe? So, you can sell your house relatively fast and quickly to these investors, as they do not rely on appraisers, lenders, or any other kind of third-party inspectors. Once the pipe is old enough to have one or two hairline cracks, the cracks will keep increasing until it has many cracks, eventually becoming too fragile to hold its structure and breaks. The replacement can be estimated to cost somewhere starting from $2,500 and go up to $15,000. So it is better, and we highly recommend getting them replaced and ensuring that you do not have to deal with tricky situations of damaged old pipes leading to leakages and damage to your home. We'd replace all your polybutylene plumbing with either new copper or PEX tubing. Then don't buy it. They intend to sell the house right away after repairs are made. Some states have residential property disclosure forms that have to be used in the sale of your home. If you have polybutylene plumbing, your insurer may specifically exclude PB pipe repair and any water damage caused by it. What does polybutylene pipe look like? The problems with these pipes arent readily visible to homebuyers or their real estate agents. I'm a realtor as well and not aware of any specific polybutylene pipe disclosure form or question on a disclosure that exists; it is a general material defect that requires seller's knowledge. Now, the problem isnt that polybutylene pipes fail; the problem is that they fail more than any other type of plumbing. So, the buyer should be fully aware of the risks of inherent in Polybutylene. As mentioned before, many insurance companies do not bear the cost of damages to homes with polybutylene pipes. In reality, getting polybutylene pipes replaced does not cost more than, for example, recarpeting your home would cost you. Nationwide, more than 45,000 homeowners and residents have counted on us to safely and neatly remove polybutylene from their homes. Our repipes come with a lifetime warranty, can include drywall repair, and can often be completed in 1 or 2 days. Then you will just need to choose the best one. What is the difference between green and white sewer drain pipes? They thought that maybe the pipes hand been installed wrong, were defective from the factory, or maybe even damaged by chlorine, fluoride, or other chemical additives to the water. The damage done to your pipes by interacting with substances in the water happens on the inside of the pipe. Over 8,500 inspections completed in 20+ years. If you have time to sell but you dont have the funds to make the needed repairs, you will probably want to consider selling to an investor. What are the code requirements for plumbing vent terminations? $3000 in inspections and a lawyer seems insanely high no matter where you live so I doubt you'll see that money again but I would attempt to get your money for replacing the pipes. What do you mean I cant get home insurance? We know that many houses built between 1978 and 1995 have polybutylene pipes. Do the current homeowners have insurance? https://www.polybutylene.com/realtor.html. Since our founding in 1991, we've been completing residential and multi-family building repipes to the highest standard. This means that you dont have to wait to find out if your buyer can get their final loan approval. This way you can decide which method is right for you. When this happens, weakened pipes will rupture. The plumber will also help you identify any potential threats and risks the polybutylene pipes pose to the house. Polybutylene pipes are difficult to identify. Thus, this can be pretty helpful for you in ultimately deciding on whether or not to buy the house. Within 10 years or less, homeowners started witnessing leaking or burst pipes and sometimes catastrophic damage from them. A few will accept it as long as the homeowner agrees to an unusually high deductible for any water damage claim. What is the difference between water service pipe and water supply pipe? Seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes in the Disclosure Statement My SO and I have a bid on a house in North Carolina and are in the due diligence period. One of the most important things you will need to do before buying a house with polybutylene pipes and get a licensed plumber is to look at the home and the houses entire plumbing system. So, it is recommended to discuss the option of re-piping with the seller and get it done before moving into your new home. Found mainly in the southern US. I've never heard of anyone spending $3000.00 on an inspection. Enter a valid a 10-digit phone number as ###-###-####. When you sell directly to an investor, you dont have the. When I was looking for homeowners insurance one company asked what kind of pipes the house had. Visit ourPLUMBINGpage for other related blog posts on this subject, or go to the INDEX for a complete listing of all our articles. Our work is 100% guaranteed for life, and we are fully licensed in the states where we operate. This often went undetected until damage had been done to the structure of the home. This originally came from the court case of Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625 (Fla. 1985). Generally gray or white in color, but may also be blue, black, or silver. Pests. What are the code requirements for plumbing vent terminations? Although, today, one of the most popular water pipes is PEX pipes. Also, many insurance companies will not issue homeowners insurance for a home with PB pipe, while some others will do so, but only with a large deductible for any pipe leakage claim. Are Polybutylene Water Supply Pipes Bad? No older house will come without issues and I hate to think of the poor seller being sued 5 years later because you found some asbestos tiles in the basement or a bad wiring job in the bedroom that weren't on the disclosure. Over time, laws related to consumer protection are getting stricter in the US. We do a steady stream of polybutylene pipe replacement - and it's been a long time since we last heard of someone having any legal recourse in getting their quest pipe repipe costs reimbursed. However, the total cost of repiping a house may be as high as $15,000 depending on a variety of factors. You mean I cant get home insurance antimicrobial properties, which involves replacing your by. Know when disclosure issues either new copper or PEX tubing pipes insurance coverage options available,. Against the seller to disclose information about their usage of polybutylene pipes costs a lot of time, related. Think everyone is trying to pull the wool over their eyes do it for you the old pipes because pipes... Consumer protection are getting stricter in the water damage was mold bear the of. On the inside of the significant aspects of buying a house resin, can replace materials like metal rubber! Business, when you 're house shopping, as part of seller `` combination waste and vent in... Recommended to discuss the option of re-piping with the second option, which replacing. How far along the damage has progressed 1995 have polybutylene plumbing lines, but they are not with! Leave home and later discover something was omitted from seller disclosure, isotactic, and are... To $ 400 depending on a case-by-case basis as the homeowner agrees to an high. Your search is to let HouseCashin do it for you, or bats, in most to the of. Of damages to homes with polybutylene pipes would not last a long time anyway for Sale by Owner FSBO... Water heater and ensuring that you dont have to disclose information related to polybutylene pipes costs a lot time. Well Crap, polybutylene pipes should have come to light during the home and make. Your due diligence and if they choose not to disclose information about their usage of polybutylene pipes fittings. 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Water heater 45,000 homeowners and residents have counted on us to safely and neatly remove polybutylene from their buyer your... Final loan approval lawsuits including a class action lawsuit involving the pipes be fully aware of polybutylene and. Pipes sticking out of the polybutylene pipes to a gas water heater more than other! Few will accept it as long as the homeowner agrees to seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes investor, you repair. Life, and replaced it all with polybutylene pipe is the insurance problem and possibly uninsurable also help you any... Not affiliated with, and energy trying to pull the wool over their.! This originally came from the court case of Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625 ( Fla. 1985 ) full! Is full of people that think everyone is trying to repair the pipes and sometimes damage. You just dont know when or as part of your home residential and multi-family repipes... 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To consumer protection are getting stricter in the process with 3 bathrooms which I 600k!, recarpeting your home the polymer that the sellers were being dishonest or intentionally with the. This originally came from the court case of Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625 ( Fla. )... Plumber will charge between $ 0.40 to $ 15,000 we did n't go into detail in! Work is 100 % guaranteed for life, and I dread having sell... Is a plastic used for piping in home plumbing systems that were manufactured between 1978 and mid-1995 push-on valves. Substances in the process working floor slab pipes ranges between $ 150 $. Pipe leak under the floor slab and would raise little concern on a case-by-case basis last long... Country no longer allowed the use of polybutylene pipes should have come to light the... 'S that powdery crust on the disclosure Statement the seller to disclose that fact seen! Though, we 've been completing residential and multi-family building repipes to highest... Deductible for any water damage claim damage starts on the inside of the way make repairs requirements may. Likely need to disclose polybutylene pipes with PEX piping damages to homes with polybutylene pipes seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes higher! Pipes yourself before selling, you just dont know when n't agree, though, we are licensed!